Curse

Motoko · Mar 19, 2009, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

so tell me, how exactly does sundering help when vampiric will be so terrible on hammers?
if you get lucky you'll get 1 "spike hit" however there are no guarantees that this "spike hit" wont eat up a prot, nor even finish the target off. hence making it pretty useless. vampiric is constant damage, and most people preffer +15 constant unconditional and unprottable damage(well life steal but lets just call it damage for this) to unsecured +20% AP that depends on target(squishie or not, shield, survivor/+armor etc).

and no, sundering doesnt>vampiric on spike and <vampiric on pressure, that's just bull... vampiric is better all the time unless using a Scythe(crazy max damage)

oh and moriz, high attack speed doesnt make sundering any better, just the damage output. higher damage output means bigger effect for increased AP(from sundering) higher attack speed just means more hits in, which works equally for both mods.

I will say this a 5th time for you since you have failed to comprehend that from my posts. You do not use a hammer to pressure a team. Hammers are generally not used in pressure builds. More than not you will see hammers used in spike builds. Not necessarily in the spike itself, but to KD a defensive character to help ensure the spike goes through. In the event that the hammer calls a spike, he will most likely want a sundering for the spike... (or ele if its a warrior). Your kill will not depend on the extra 10-15 health you will steal.

Vamp hammers are bad. Stop using them.

Neo-LD · Mar 19, 2009, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

I will say this a 5th time for you since you have failed to comprehend that from my posts. You do not use a hammer to pressure a team. Hammers are generally not used in pressure builds. More than not you will see hammers used in spike builds. Not necessarily in the spike itself, but to KD a defensive character to help ensure the spike goes through. In the event that the hammer calls a spike, he will most likely want a sundering for the spike... (or ele if its a warrior). Your kill will not depend on the extra 10-15 health you will steal.

Vamp hammers are bad. Stop using them.

I heard somewhere that if you repeat the same thing over and over again, it becomes fact.

Seraphim of Chaos · Mar 19, 2009, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

I'd rather go get a job than start trying to win the lottery when I get low on money. 'Try shit' is good advice when your current strat isn't working. Sticking to the same formula and switching to something that is worse or about the same 95 times out of 100 is not.

Since when was this the "should I use vamp or sundering when my current strat is working?!

" thread?

Either way, I think a lot of people are forgetting a pretty big aspect of this whole debate. Vamp is big healz.

Reverend Dr · Mar 19, 2009, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

So that's more than 80% of spikes that do purely less damage on sundering, about 14% that do around equal or marginally more damage, 4% do about 6-14 more damage, and 1-2% for significantly more damage (+15 to +45 at the fartest extreme).

two points

1. You get far more critical hits on real targets than on dummies, because real targets kite. Unless the real targets are just bad, in which case you've already won. Your first KD is going to be hitting a moving target, that is a crit, it has a 20% chance to proc sundering on a crit. So remember, if you are playing a hammer warrior and your first KD is a moving target, you have a 1 in 5 chance that you are going to be dealing more damage then vamp just from your first hit alone.

2. Even if your results of 6% of spikes do more damage, it is still worth it. Please remember that pressure doesn't kills it gets mopped up by overpowered party healing and word. A failed spike is about the same as not spiking (remember this, this one fact is always ignored by the people that side with vampiric). A spike every 10-20 seconds during a 28 minute match at 6% rate ends up with 5-10 much larger spikes during that match. If you can't get kills with a normal spike, this gives you 5-10 potential kills you would not have otherwise had. Five to ten deaths is usually enough to turn a match around.

Motoko · Mar 20, 2009, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

I heard somewhere that if you repeat the same thing over and over again, it becomes fact.

I have repeated my side for the sake of discussion. The discussion is negated when people try to argue the same points that have already been retorted.

Yet I still don't seem to mind trying to help people.

Divinus Stella · Mar 20, 2009, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

Chance are if you are training a protted target and hoping to get the vamp hits through the prot, you are probably on the wrong target.

In the event that the target is about to die and you are trying to kill it with the vamp procs, you are probably playing the wrong type of warrior.

Hammer isn't meant for pressuring out a team directly by dps. Period.

Your argument makes no sense, your saying that sundering is better because while wielding a sundering weapon you dont train protted targets and dont select the wrong tagets.

I still can't seem to find your point amongst your posts, can you just state your raw argument rather than dodging the question.

scruffy · Mar 20, 2009, 12:47 AM // 00:47

reverend thats not how spike builds work unless youre using like a really pure spike build a.k.a one that isnt using warriors anyways

just because a spike doesnt kill doesnt mean it isnt successful, i judge a spikes success on how much damage gets through to the target, if you can consistantly get most of your teams damage potential off onto targets it will burn their monks energy so they wont be able to stop future spikes

thats why rawr spike/ double turret spike was so strong, it had such high damage on low recharges so that even if the spikes were stopped the monks dont get time to regen their energy because they constantly have to stop spikes

also motoko wut are u talking about i hear on demand KD's are good for dps

also: weapon mods dont matter that much furious or vampiric are probably best, you dont really notice the damage from vampiric but you do notice when you get double adrenaline which always kicks ass

Greedy Gus · Mar 20, 2009, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

1. You get far more critical hits on real targets than on dummies, because real targets kite. Unless the real targets are just bad, in which case you've already won. Your first KD is going to be hitting a moving target, that is a crit, it has a 20% chance to proc sundering on a crit. So remember, if you are playing a hammer warrior and your first KD is a moving target, you have a 1 in 5 chance that you are going to be dealing more damage then vamp just from your first hit alone.

This is classic theorycraft, with an automatic excuse that it's only true on 'good' players. If you think almost every dev hammer or magehunter is an autocrit on a fleeing (just moving is not autocrit) target, then you're not talking about realistic play. Fair enough if you're playing a hammer bar with rush that you'll be getting more autocrits, notably on bulls, but it's been replaced by extra utility on almost every hammer bar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

2. Even if your results of 6% of spikes do more damage, it is still worth it.

That was 4% 3-hit spikes that do around 6-14 more damage, and only 1% that do significantly more (15-45). If you think the 6-14 more damage matters, then your own argument is cut down at the knees (vamp does 15 more damage 51% of the time).

If you switch to the argument that damage doesn't matter and isn't what you're looking for with hammers (wtf?), then fair enough, run furious. But if you're relatively comparing the damage mods sundering vs. vamp, regardless of how little it matters compared to other factors (fine, purely academic question), vamp is the correct answer. More damage over time, more damage on spikes, more damage around prot. The only valid pro for sundering is that 4% of hits will give a big spike of damage (+18-20) that can freak a monk out or be a bit harder for party healing to clean.

A lot of people feel like sundering is strong because the value in their head is a proc on a crit, and not all the others wasted on non-crits. Some people just don't like health degen, fine, personal choice. But stop rationalizing a non-optimal personal choice, and acting like other people are the idiots, to feel better about your choice.

Reverend Dr · Mar 20, 2009, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Woo, I got three proc on non-crits damage is bad.

Woo, I got non-crits with a vamp, damage is still bad.

Crits are what kill. One proc on a crit is worth more than vampiric and with no crits you weren't killing anyway. Instead of looking at sundering procs, do the math looking at crits. (actually is the crit rate 20%? I was just running off of Gus' math)

Quote:

On a 3-hit timeframe against 60AL

0 crit procs (51.2%) = MOD DOESN'T MATTER, NO ONE DIED SPIKE AGAIN

1 crit procs (38.4%) = [+20 crit sundered (20%), no sunder (80%)]
[+12-24 both non crit sunder (4%), +6-12 one non crit sunder(32%), +no non-crit sunders (64%)]

2 crit procs (9.6%) = [+40 both crit sundered (4%), +20 one is sundered (32%)]
[+6-12 non crit sunder (20%), + no non-crit sunders(80%)]

3 crit procs (.8%) = [+60 all sunder (.8%), +40 two sundered (9.6%), +20 single sundered (38.4%), +no sunder (51.2%)]

Do you see that big 51.2% glaring at the top. That is when vampiric is certainly doing more damage than sundering. Stop using that 51.2% to keep claiming that vampiric is better, or that sundering is inferior. Spikes without crits are not worth considering.

The sundering takes the spikes that are very threatening, and makes them even more threatening.

This is also of course assuming that you are running hammer bash. If you don't run hammer bash there is pretty much no reason to ever switch off of furious. And even if you are using bash, you would only switch to a non-furious during a spike and switch back when building.

Lux Aeterna · Mar 20, 2009, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Would someone explain to me why people are saying to use sundering, when vamp does more damage (except like 10% of the time)? Isn't it better to always just hit for +5 rather than hoping the sundering will activate on your crit in a 1-2sec window?

Also why don't you use hammers for pressure ? My hammer build actually does very close damage to my eviscerate.

scruffy · Mar 20, 2009, 08:06 AM // 08:06

i find hammer warriors are good for pressuring in builds that have lots of degen, they do a lot of solo-spike damage to finish low people and also while the monk is KD'd he cant red bar

on a side note you can do close to 400 damage with a sundering hammer in 3 shots if you run 16 hammer, get criticals and the sundering triggers and you use backbreaker crushing mighty blow

Motoko · Mar 20, 2009, 09:44 AM // 09:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

Would someone explain to me why people are saying to use sundering, when vamp does more damage (except like 10% of the time)? Isn't it better to always just hit for +5 rather than hoping the sundering will activate on your crit in a 1-2sec window?

Also why don't you use hammers for pressure ? My hammer build actually does very close damage to my eviscerate.

The frequency at which you can use the eviscerate combo will be much higher than that of your hammer combo.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Mar 20, 2009, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by scruffy

on a side note you can do close to 400 damage with a sundering hammer in 3 shots if you run 16 hammer, get criticals and the sundering triggers and you use backbreaker crushing mighty blow

You do even more damage if someone put's great dwarf weapon on you, and you wouldn't need KD skills!

Seraphim of Chaos · Mar 20, 2009, 04:22 PM // 16:22

It's not hard to understand. Sit on Vamp/Elemental for "pressure" and switch to Sundering on your attack chain assuming you're using bash. Otherwise, use Furious. OR, be really pro and switch from Sundering->Furious midway.

Lux Aeterna · Mar 20, 2009, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

The frequency at which you can use the eviscerate combo will be much higher than that of your hammer combo.

Actually this is from the damage master, both eviscerate and devastating hammer were in the 50dps range. Eviscerate is an 8 adren attack, dev is a bit less than 7....

dies like fish · Mar 20, 2009, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

Actually this is from the damage master, both eviscerate and devastating hammer were in the 50dps range. Eviscerate is an 8 adren attack, dev is a bit less than 7....

Hammers have slower attack speed than Axes or Swords.

Seraphim of Chaos · Mar 20, 2009, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by dies like fish

Hammers have slower attack speed than Axes or Swords.

Hammers also get 5 adrenaline every 20 seconds.

Krill · Mar 20, 2009, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by scruffy

on a side note you can do close to 400 damage with a sundering hammer in 3 shots if you run 16 hammer, get criticals and the sundering triggers and you use backbreaker crushing mighty blow

You can do over 9000 dmg with firestorm - backbreaker - crushing blow - mighty blow - inferno.

zling · Mar 21, 2009, 12:02 AM // 00:02

so many fail arguements here :S
first of all, Hammers not used for pressure? what are you smoking pal? Hammers are the best weapon for pressure, yes even better than Swords! why you ask? 2 words: Knock Down! yeah yeah, bull's+shock but guess what? bull's+dev/mage+bash is better!

second of all, pressure doesn't kill? oh ok, so what does exactly? perfect spikes, ok what else? yeah yeah everyone's running WE, LC, etc nowadays and pure pressure builds are rather unseen, however it doesn't mean they don't kill... pressure=monk struggles with energy=monk can't keep up the prots=target dying. simple enough concept for you? yeah, it takes longer than a spike, but is actually more reliable assuming you can do it right(with proper skills, sup Izzy). also, a failed spike=pressure just so you know, as it still forces the Monks to use energy to save the spike and heal the target after it.

now, it seems to me like you guys don't understand what pressure actually is, from the above posts at least... so pressure is basically to force the enemy backline(monks mind you) to spend energy, that's all there really is to it! either the Monks and other mid line defenses manage to keep up or they collapse and you get kills, sometimes even wipes.

now, back to the sundering vs vampiric on spike, pressure, blahblahblah. sundering is inferior to vampiric on all Warrior weapons on both spike and pressure! yes constant damage sounds like pressure to you while chance to deal extra damage sounds like spike to you, however that chance to trigger on an actual spike is very very low, hence you really can't count on it when spiking. if it gets triggered, awsome! if not, meh, useless... while with Vampiric those extra life steal help in spikes, slightly relieves pressure from your own monks(life steal=self heal) and pressure(if the spike failed), all in one!

oh and one last thing, spikes aren't scary when you get a chance to get +20-30 damage from crappy sundering mod, they're scary when your team manages to shut down the enemy's defenses right before the spike.

as for furious, generally I don't like it, even worse odds than Sundering, and as I said earlier the damage from vampiric adds up all the time for extra pressure. however it does give you more frequent spikes every now and than, when it actually triggers, so it's at least partially useful. oh and if you see that the enemy monks mop up your team's pressure easily than yes perhaps it will be good to switch to Furious, so you can at least unload a bit more frequently. however sundering is still useless in either scenario.

Motoko · Mar 21, 2009, 06:30 AM // 06:30

You seem to be confusing two modes of attacking. Pressuring via KD's and pressuring via DPS. Hammer is not the weapon for DPS. Don't make such rash arguments nor assume I would make such a radically stupid statement. It is the fact that the hammer is not utilized for its DPS that I prefer the sundering or elemental.

Make sense?

Also, the degen on the hammer vamp opposed to its +5 heal will actually create more pressure than relieve. Chances are you will not hit every single hit, and you will have off time changing targets. Sit on the guild with a vamp while you aren't blind blurred and the lord isn't protted? Go for it.